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Tomato Varieties

4. QURSTION
Subject: Tomato Varieties

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999

Last April you posted some preliminary results with some tomato varieties you were growing, and noted problems with flavor. Recently, I ordered quantities of these seeds and I was wondering if your later experience with the varieties mentioned here produced better tasting fruit. Any update appreciated, and any suggestions from the list of varieties suitable to hot climates like Arizona also appreciated. I'm intending to grow these tomatoes in greenhouses, hopefully with an aquaponics nutrient systembacked up by earthworm leachate.

John Phillips

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999

Pedigree doesnt matter as much as the soil the plant is grown in .A great tasting tomato variety in one soil can taste horrible in another. Speaking of hydroponics, has anyone tried using lava gravel in their system?Being porous, and having some degree of CEC, I would think that it would be better than most.

billevans

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999

Speaking of hydroponics, has anyone tried using lava gravel in their system?Being porous, and having some degree of CEC, I would think that it would be better than most. One of my growbeds uses scoria (red porous rock). It works about the same as perlite, but is a heck of alot heavier.

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999

The flavor problems with the varieties seemed to improve as my system matured (more nutrients?), at least according to friends who taste tested them. I'm pretty critical and still felt that they didn't quite measure up to field grown ones.

From the Sungolds, I harvested an average of 3 lbs per plant over a 240 day period. They were consistently very sweet, flavorful and attractive, although the color might make marketing a little more of a challenge. The splitting I mentioned is a frequent problem with cherries and can best be avoided by not waiting too late to harvest. I just planted Sun Cherry which has the same "Sweet 100" heritage but ripens red.

From the Monroes and First Ladys, I harvested approximately 10 lbs per plant over the same period and, as I said, the flavor did seem to improve. I didn't keep track of 1's, 2's, etc, but I would estimate that only about 25-30% would have been marketable as 1's, compared to nearly 100% of the cherries. The others suffered from inconsistent sizes, and odd shapes, especially the Monroes. Perhaps more attention to pollination would help correct this problem, which is inconsequential if they're being grown for home use only. I've just planted Cobras for comparison.

The problem with the indeterminate varieties recommended for greenhouse production is that they take up so damned much space, both the roots and especially the tops. I transplanted a determinate variety (Homestead) from my garden which is now 2 years old and still producing and, while I haven't tracked production closely, it doesn't approach the indeterminates for poundage.

By the time I was ready to transplant the Brandywines and Roses, my greenhouse production was slowing due to heat and shade (the plants continued to grow but failed to set fruit) and so I planted them in my garden. They both tasted very good but were highly variable in shape and size and production was much lower than the "improved" varieties.

I too am interested in trying more heat tolerant varieties, but have none to recommend. Maybe someone else on the list has suggestions (Jim R.?) or try checking with your local organic growers association or cooperative extension agent. Let me know what you find and I'll do the same.

Gordon

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999



Yes but perlite is basically silica,whereas the scoria has many elements?, true?, tho will take forever to turn into clay?Yes it is heavy, have 20 ton in front yard. Yes.. although both perlite and scoria come from a volcanic source. Its deceivingly light, and I suppose that's why they call it perlite :) (I think they puff it up in ovens like pop corn or puffed rice). Both perlite and scoria will take more than your life time (or mine) to decompose into any other compound, I'd imagine. I have 5 year old perlite in my backyard and am still using it as effectively as the new stuff. At the end of the season, I fill a trash can up with water, immerse a heating element into it, get the water to around 100 degrees, and throw all the perlite in, and boil it for 12 minutes. Its important you do this with any medium (except new sterile bagged media) before you use it.

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999

Try Heatwave from Burpee, they do good here in New Mexico in fact it is the only one that will set in 100 degree + temp that we have here. Last year we had over 30 days of over 110 degrees and mine did fine. I don't know how they will do in a greenhouse or in cool weather.


John Hays
Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999

I too am interested in trying more heat tolerant varieties, but have none to recommend. Maybe someone else on the list has suggestions (Jim R.?) or try checking with your local organic growers association or cooperative extension agent. Let me know what you find and I'll do the same.

We are gowing tomatoes now in a raft system, but the last time we studied tomatoes was more than 12 years ago in an outdoor flood and drain gravel system. The varieties may not be around anymore, but here are the results for 16 weeks in the system:

Cherry Challenger and Vendor were indeterminants I believe that we suckered and trained to one stem and therefore planted at a higher density. Floridade and Vendor were determinants that we planted at a lower density and never suckered. We just tied up the main stems to supports so they would grow upward and not fall on the ground. We achieved just as good a yield on a density basis without all the work. Furthermore, the determinant fruit was protected from the sun by dense foliage and they did not crack while Vendor usually cracked right after it turned pink. Our density was too high for the determinants because I remember that the plant at the end of the row, which receieved the most sunlight, yielded 50 lbs. The experiment was brought to a premature close by tomatoe russet mites, which are so small they can only be seen under a microscope. We grew the tomatoes in a hot outdoor environment. These results may not apply to a greenhouse in a temperate climate. Remember that fruit set and production is better at lower nitrogen levels.

Jim R.

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999

>Thanks for the info Jim. What varieties are you using now?

> Gordon

We are growing three tomato plants of each of the following varieties: Bonita, Olympic, Duke, Empire, Joker, Liberty, Celebrity, Colonial, SunMaster, Flora, Pilgrim and Merced. All are determinant varieties of big red tomatoes. One plant of each variety is planted in each of three recirculating systems. Jim R.

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999

I take it from this and your previous posting that you've found that determinate varieties are more suitable for your aquaponic system than indeterminates. In the literature I've seen, indeterminates are invariably recommended for greenhouse production. Can you explain why your experiences contradict this? Perhaps because you're growing outdoors and not in a greenhouse? Determinates are certainly much easier to deal with in confined spaces as well, I'm sure, as in a rafted system like yours.

Gordon

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999

Space in outdoor systems is not at such a premium as it is in greenhouses. When you train to one stem outdoors, the winds really whips the plant and puts a lot of pressure on the base. In sharp gravel it can girdle the stem and eventually kill the plant. We used collars. Also light intensities are higher outside (better for determinants with their heavy foliage) and high humidity is not such a critical factor as in greenhouses. Trained plants allow better ventilation in greenhouses. In any event we obtained the same production per unit area with either indeterminants trained or dertermants not trained (bush). The labor involved in training a plant is substantial, so we elect not to do this and avoid the fruit cracking problem as a bonus. I'm sure that training plants to one two stemsis the best method for a greenhouse.

Jim R.

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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999


Here's what Johnny's Seeds says about determinate (bush) vs indeterminate (climbing) tomatoes:

"A tomato variety is determinate if the vine terminates in a flower cluster. They make only moderate growth after the fruit forms...These are mostly grown without support although they are well adapted to cage or mostly grown without support although they are well adapted to cage or stake culture. Indeterminate varieties continue to vine even after fruit set, ripening over a longer period of time. If they are grown without support the plants will sprawl and take up a great deal of space. For best results stake, cage or trellis and prune. Since there is a higher foliage to fruit ratio, indeterminate varieties are less susceptible to leaf diseases such as alternaria blight. Although staking adds work, the tomatoes stay cleaner and have a better potential for developing rich flavor and large fruit. Yield per square foot of garden will also be greater."

Gordon
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5. QURSTION
Subject: Gempler's Catalog

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999

If you work outdoors, have a garden or farm, work in the greenhouse, or just want to stay warm in the winter with heavy duty coats, boots, parkas, etc., you will want to have a Gempler's 1999 Master Catalog. There are all kinds of hard to find tools and equipment for your farm or greenhouse in Gemplers. Everything from shovels, vegetable harvesting knives, soil test kits, microscopes, light meters, weather monitoring equipment, weighing scales, books on Integrated Pest Management, books on nutrient deficiencies, books on blueberry culture....all kinds of safety equipment, sprayers, ATV accessories...it just goes on and on. No, this isn't a commericial plug. But I sure do like their catalog. Check them out at 800-382-8473 for catalog requests. Outside USA and Canada, dial 608-424-1544, email corpsales@gemplersmail.com or techsupport@gemplersmail.com. Check out their website at:

http://www.gemplers.com. They have another website devoted to IPM at

http://www.ipmalmanac.com. Let me know what you think about Gemplers,

especially if you have bought from them before- how was their service,

etc.?

Ted
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6.QURSTION

Subject: Operating systems open for visits

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999

We are compiling a list of operating aquaponics systems that would be open to visitors by special appointment, or those who would be willing to communicate with new/potential operators on a one-to-one basis. Size of the system is not critical at this point, although we'd like to know that as well. We have inquiries from those interested in academic settings as well as home production and commercial sites.

Please respond to us directly if your site is available, and we'd welcome whatever background information you're willing to share.

Thanks

Paula Speraneo

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124

Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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Subject: Tomatoes

From: joyeuse@netcom.ca (Joy Pye-Macswain)

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999

Morning....

Well after much reading and some lurking I am finally going ot pose my first question and hope can help me out....

1) What should I be planting my seeds into to get them started? Rockwool- which is wonderfully inert, or vermiculite or ?????

2)Has anyone used clay particles (hymite I think it is called) as the growing medium and have there been any problems caused for the Tilapia in systems using this as a growing medium?

3) Has anyone any experience with Virkin as a disinfectant after harvesting of fish and plants?

I would appreciate any advice on these questions and thanks.

>>Joy Pye-MacSwain

Future Aqua Farms

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Subject: Re: Tomatoes

From: "vpage" <vpage@nucleus.com>

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999

The only medium that I have had good success with( no disease and no green build up) is coir or coconut fibre. You can buy it in blocks -they expand to 3 times their size when wet. The coir can be reused and has a natural antibiotic quality. It wicks moisture and nutrients but allows for oxygen to get to the roots if it is not entirely submersed. It holds moisture in dry times or does not dry out like other media. Unlike rock wool it is completely biodegradable. Except for consideration of the distance it travels to get to you it is more economical, financially and environmentally.

Success!

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Subject: Seeding

From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999

Joy,

I've had excellent results with 100% perlite. My understanding is that vermiculite holds more moisture, possibly too much. If you want to use it you'll need to mix it with perlite. There are two schools of thought on seeding: the first is to seed into trays or cell-packs and then transplant later into your growing beds. The second is to seed directly into your beds at the desired spacing for grow-out. If you seed directly into your planting beds you will be trading off less handling for reduced greenhouse yield. If space is not at a premium I would avoid double-handling if at all possible.

What type of growing system do you have in mind? Flood & drain, nutrient film technique (NFT), perlite drip? That will also influence the seeding issue. For example if you plan to grow tomatoes in NFT you probably should start the seedlings in rockwool.

Keep the questions coming Joy, that's how we all learned. Adriana


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Subject: Re: Seeding

From: joyeuse@netcom.ca (Joy Pye-Macswain)

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:37:53 -0400 (EDT)

Morning Adriana,


For this first time out I was planning on seeding into cell packs and then later transplanting into the growing beds... the bosses want a _good_ greenhouse yield for this first run.....:) :) :) I expect that for the next planting that I will try a couple of the beds with seeding directly into the growing beds and see if I can quantifify differences in yield, ....not to mention save myself some work, I hope......always a good thing...:) :) :)

Joy

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Tomatoes

From: "grizzly" <grizzly@monroeaccess.net>

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:20:18 -0400

Looking for recommendations on good varieties,anyone please? Griz

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Tomatoes

From: "vpage" <vpage@nucleus.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:49:25 -0600

I haven't been watching what you are growing the tomatoes for but there is a heritage tomato that is probably the sweetest one you can grow. It is called Brandywine. It comes in yellow and red. It is quite large and indescribably delicious!

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Tomatoes

From: "grizzly" <grizzly@monroeaccess.net>

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:13:23 -0400

Hi V, I'm familar with Brandywine,but do they do well in a greenhouse enviroment?I'm looking for a good sandwich tomato to sell this winter.

Thanks Grizzly

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Tomatoes

From: William Evans

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999

I grow brandy's everyyear...its a fussy critter..too much, not enuf soil moisture, the fruit splits or blossom end rot..It is worth growing as the taste is superb.....One thing tho it isnt so much the lineage of a plant that determines its taste..It's more the growing conditions, nutrients available..Ive grown lousy tasting brandies, and ones that were very sweet, it's all in the soil(or in this forum -fish poop& associated biota) The plants w/ sprawl BIGTIME iff lots of root space, so be prepared to thin,and trellis them ..In my case one plant every 4 feet is enuf

bill evans

san diego

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Tomatoes

From: "Steve Paden" <padenfarms@hotmail.com>

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 05:55:59 PDT

I have used a variety from "Totally Tomatoes" called "Presto" with good success. The fruit are medium-sized, uniformly colored and nice, round shaped - very good for fresh markets. This variety is intended for greenhouse use only, and does not do well outside.

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Tomatoes

From: "TGTX"

Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:44:26 -0500

> Do you have an address for totally tomatoes? Thanks

Totally Tomatoes

P.O. Box 1626

Augusta, GA 30903

Phone 803 663 0016

Toll-Free FAX 888-477-7333

Here's another nice little catalog for the avid grower/botanist Richters

The Herb Specialists

Goodwood, Onatrio, Canada L0C 1A0

Phone 905 640 6677

Fax 905 640 6641

Email orderdesk@ richters.com

Web: www.richters.com

CHOW Ted

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Subject: Re: greenhouse tomatoes

From: Carolyn Hoagland <choagland@connectec.com>

Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:24:53 -0500

I found this website by accident. It says they specialize in seed for green house tomatoes and cyclamen.

http://www.deruiterusa.com/

Carolyn Hoagland

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Subject: Tomato varieties

From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999

Has anybody tried any of the "black" tomatoes or a yellow one with a scalloped edge?

Tomato Growers Supply Company

(http://www.tomatogrowers.com/)

has photographs of some interesting varieties including - Black Prince http://www.tomatogrowers.com/gallery.htm and - Ruffled Yellow http://www.tomatogrowers.com/yellow.htm

If you are looking for the highest yields then you should research the varieties which are most resistant to a variety of diseases. A quick search of the hydro list archives will bring up recent discussions on the subject. I have recently seeded a striped oval cherry tomato from Stokes called Tigerette and will keep you posted as to its performance.

Adriana

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Subject: tomatoes and nitrogen

From: "Mark Brotman"

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999

Too much nitrogen will give too much leaf growth and less fruit on both tomatoes and strawberries. That said, Charley at UVI had some outstanding tomatoes growing on one plant I saw down there. Perhaps the key is to limit the number of tomato plants and use, e.g., leafy greens to soak up the excess nitrogen.



Mark J. Brotman

Aquaculturist

CropKing

5050 Greenwich Rd.

Seville, OH 44273

Tel: 330/769-2002, Fax: 330/769-2616

Email: mbrotman@cropking.com

On the web at http://www.cropking.com

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Subject: Re: nitrogen

From: Jon Hays

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999

When you talk about too much nitrogen, it may not be too much nitrogen but not enough carbon. You have a carbon nitrogen ratio that you have to balance. On the nitrogen cycle ( when nitrogen is high) you grow plant structure. When the carbon is high you set fruit, this is the reason for CO2 injection.

Best regards

John Hays

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Subject: Re: Aquaponic Tomatoes

From: "Charlie Shultz"

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 07:19:48 PDT

Adriana,

>If you had to select 4 varieties out of the ones you grew which would they be?

All varieties (12) flourished and produced a bounty of toms. I guess my favorites were SunMaster, Celebrity, Bonita, and Merced.

>Was your spacing 4 feet between plants in all directions?

Our troughs are approximately 4 feet wide, so these plants were placed down the middle at 4 foot intervals.

>For how long did the plants produce fruit?

The seeds sprouted Dec 1, transplants were put into net pots on Dec 14 and harvest continued from March 3 - April 8.

During the summer months, I think the air temperature here is too hot for tomato production. I've been told that the heat actually will prevent pollination or produce sterile pollen.

In addition, we usually experience a Pythium fungus outbreak during our hot summer months. Currently, we are running trial experiments to determine chilling effects on Pythium, lettuce and fish production.

We will continue to work with tomatoes, but probably only during our cool months.

>Adriana

Charlie

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Subject: tomatoes! & fish

From: Bill

Date: 5 Nov 99

VERY good point about tomatoes being hungry. Indians used to bury a fish under EACH corn seed. tomatoes don't need that much protein, but their hunger is very significant. Cherry tomatoes?
Or really big fish. Bonemeal is a SLOW release fertilizer, which is (normally) meant to be dug in with the soil, before planting, due to poor migration. Ortho, used to have a book dedicated JUST to tomatoes. Mine is, ...somewhere. (I bought almost all of them.) Sterilize the meal if you wish... 140-150 in oven, spread thinly, measure center temp to be sure, 30 min. TagLine 5 or 10 lb bags is what I use. I wouldn't buy 'bulk,' if there is such a thing.

Unrelated question. Anyone ozonate return water, for bacteriological or virol control? If so, how many grams, etc is the unit? I putz with that, for incoming household, due to taste. I usually like the Hetch-Hetchy water, but others don't.

Bill OOWON

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Subject: Re: list and tomatoes!

From: "Wendy Nagurny" <wnagurny@sunlink.net>

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 02:48:15 -0500

>Aquaponics works in a similar fashion. All solid matter should be filtered out and the remaining water soluble fish waste is pumped through gravel or sand beds and consumed by the plants. Adding bone meal (not water soluble) to half your aquaponics system (the hydroponic part) shouldn't do much more then pollute both halves with silt. If your tomatoes need more nutrients then fix it at the fish end. Add more waste generators to the system or change their diet.

Whether you filter your solids or not depends on your setup. If you grow your plants "hydro" like, i.e. the roots are suspended in water, then you need to keep the solids from getting to the roots or it clings and forms a big icky mess that will not make the plants very happy. If you grow your plants S and S Aqua style with the roots developing in a gravel bed, initial solids removal is unnecessary. Either way the best use of your fish waste is to process it and use it for your plants rather then removing it in some fashion. An in-line bio-filter large enough to handle the volume, will convert the fish waste (liquid and solid) into usable plant nutrients. You can either grow plants right in the filter (S and S Aqua) or send the water through a hydro type arrangement.

Wendy

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Subject: Re: list and tomatoes!

From: "TGTX"

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999

Wendy, very good post. I agree very much with what you just 'splained to us.

Very concise and to the point. Probably take me 3 pages to convey that. It's a curse I have. The Irish in me, I suppose.

I would add that solids can build up in gravel systems if the fish feeding rate is too high or the bed flush rate is not optimal or if oxygen is too low for what I call "aquatic composting" to proceed at a vigorous pace...but those are all just part of tweaking the knobs. Every system is a little different and requires customized operation. I even found that my 18 beds, which were more or less identically built, had to have slightly different adjustments made in flows/drainage. Therefore, building optional flexibility into the operating system by design - ie., before building it, can be very helpful and well worthwhile.

Ted

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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: Gordon Watkins <gwatkins@jasper.yournet.com>

Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999

Correct me if I'm wrong, but tomatoes don't really need protein at all -they need nitrogen which is a by-product of protein degradation. Proteins, such as that found in bone meal, blood meal, soybean meal, etc, serves as a food for microorganisms which convert it into ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc.

Actually, bone meal is relatively fast-acting compared to other organic forms of P, such as colloidal or rock phosphate, or Ca such as limestone. This is why it is more effective at controlling blossom end rot on tomatoes, a short season crop. Of course if one is comparing it to synthetic forms such as super phosphate, then yes, it is slow release.

> Sterilize the meal if you wish... 140-150 in oven, spread thinly, measure center temp to be sure, 30 min.

I guess you're referring to the aforementioned connection with diseases?

Most bone meal is steamed at higher temps than you mention but prions, the culprits in mad cow disease and CJD, are not afected by temp. In fact, they have found no means of destroying prions, including radiation. This, and its long incubation period, is why it is of such concern.

Gordon Watkins

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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: "TGTX"

Date: Mon, 8 Nov

Gordon, I agree with most of what you just posted up to the point of the claim...excuse me...where you said.... that the "concern" about bone meal relates to indestructible prions, in which case I just have some questions about these prions...which are proteins or at least peptides or polypeptides. So I must say "Whoa there, and hold.... whatever it is you are holding onto at the moment."

As I understand it, Spongiform Encephelitis is "caused" by these prions, which are not living cells.... they are not pathogens in the traditional sense...and they are not viruses. They are merely proteins (or peptides, or polypeptides, depending on where you draw the line for those categories) which can incorporate into the brain tissue- specifically the neurons...brain cells.... of animals that have injested them (their stomach acid and proteolytic enzymes in their gut do not phase these prions it is claimed...or said...) and somehow these prions act to change the protein synthesis of those neural cells from that point in time forward until the brains of these animals are about as useful to them as having a mass of tapioca pudding between their ear lobes.

What I do not understand, based on my very limited knowledge of protein chemistry, is how any protein can be ABSOLUTELY UNAFFECTED and TOTALLY IMPERVIOUS to being denatured by heat at some critical temperature. When you claim...sorry...when you say...that prions are not affected by temperature...I wonder if you mean any reasonable heat treatment temperature whatsoever.. in which case, I find that extremely hard to understand.

The tertiary structures of proteins especially are very sensitive to heat, and it is that very tertiary structure (the 3D twisting and coiling of the protein chain into a particular shape, which is dependent upon comparatively weak hydrogen bonding ) that renders it's specific designed function within the cell...like a key for a lock. We know that the albumin in the hard boiled egg changes its tertiary structure when it is boiled, resulting in an increase of compaction, density and solidification of the protein, and the transparency is reduced to that appealing white color in my eggs in the frying pan...Sunny Side Up!

I would agree that some simple peptides or polypeptides that do not possess that extra tertiary structure to begin with might not be "denatured" of their tertiary structures or any other structural aspect at low temperatures, but surely we must expect that at some temperature, something in any given protein, peptide or polypeptide molecule must break, twist, cleave, snap, or become oxidized beyond recognition from the original shape or chemistry. That just makes sense to me, but maybe I am so infested with prions that my neurons are coalescing into the last stages of dementia here....What was that stuff that just dribbled out of my ear? Looks like tapioca!

I guess we are not really disagreeing but talking about differences in degrees...literally...of sensible heat. When do these "prions" no longer become biochemically hazardous?...(If in fact they are the culprit...which I am somewhat skeptical about, but willing to learn more about the evidence)

Along the lines of honest skeptism....How do these simple, supposedly indestructible prions totally take over the protein synthesis machinery of neurons? How do they survive in tact after composting microorganims, heat treatments, stomach acid, and proteolytic digestive enzymes attack them? I suspect the animal rights lobby would argue that there is no safe temperature to treat prions....nothing in nature can destroy them......so that would be just one more reason not to consume meat of any kind......just as many environmentalists on the extreme end of the spectrum would argue that there is no safe concentration of compound XYZ...so that would be just one more reason never to produce compound XYZ under any circumstances whatsoever, no matter what the benefits to humanity........but I cannot face the truth, knowing what we know about nature, and be a cheerleader for those kinds of claims all at the same time.

Tedzo

----------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: steve spring

Date: Mon, 08 Nov

WOW!!!

I have a pretty good education. I'm pretty good with chemistry, biology, flow-dynamics, etc., & I was able to follow what you guys were saying, but I had to really think about it.

I, now, have both of you guys mentally "bookmarked". If I ever disagree with either one of you, I will be sure to have my homework done.

I would like to ask a rather "mundane" question. Please follow the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid.) format.

I am breeding and raising Tilapia. I will have my 1600 gal system set up within a few days. I want to raise "summertime" tomatoes in the "wintertime" in Wisconsin. I printed the plans for a 11-plant system from "Ron" (one of our associates) that appears to be quite synergistic with the Tilapia system. I have been told, however, that I will probably run into a P & K deficiency...in dealing with the tomatoes. Do either of you have any suggestions as to how I can overcome this deficiency w/o hurting the Tilapia?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot.....(Bob, I really enjoy your response to articles that are posted.)

You may respond via "aquaponics" or you may email me directly @:

careplus@execpc.com

Yours...........Steve

TGTX wrote:

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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: mmiller@pcsia.com

Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999

Ted, this is a really strange one with a lot yet to be learned. Nova had a good program some time back and the transcript can be addressed at

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/madcow/.

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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: Marc & Marcy

Date: Mon, 08 Nov


I visited a couple of web sites and the sterilization procedures are pretty drastic. They mumbled the following on

http://medhlp.netusa.net/glossary/new/gls_2561.htm

"Standard disinfectants such as formalin, heat, exposure to ultraviolet light or x-rays is ineffective to inactivate the virus. Autoclaving to at least 132 degrees C. or immersion in 4% sodium hydroxide or 10% sodium hypochlorite solution for 1 hour is recommended for sterilization." From:

http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/prions.htm

The PrPsc protein is very resistant to endogenous protease that would normally destroy the protein. Because the PrPsc can't be broken down, it builds up, aggregates, then precipitates forming plaques and causing spongiform damage.

For the same reason that cells can not destroy PrPsc , prions are very heat resistant. While some loss of infectivity occurs at temperatures above 100°C, 30 to 60 minutes at more than 130°C is needed for inactivation. Prions remain infective after: sterilizing levels of radiation, formalin, extremes of pH, non-polar organic solvents, burying for years, passing through 0.1 µm filters (2.2 µm filters remove bacteria). Prions infectivity is destroyed by: 1M NaOH @ 55°C , chlorine bleach @ 20,000 ppm (household bleach is 50,000 ppm) hypochlorite. Dis be one bad protein. Maybe Adrianna's cinnamite might work?

Marc

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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: Ronald Polka

Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999

At 10:03 PM 11/8/1999 -0800, you wrote:

<excerpt>

I am breeding and raising Tilapia. I will have my 1600 gal system set up within a few days. I want to raise "summertime" tomatoes in the "wintertime" in Wisconsin. I printed the plans for a 11-plant system from "Ron" (one of our associates) that appears to be quite synergistic with the Tilapia system. I have been told, however, that I will probably run into a P & K deficiency...in dealing with the tomatoes. Do either of you have any suggestions as to how I can overcome this deficiency w/o hurting the Tilapia?

Yours...........Steve

</excerpt>

Steve

Your concerns about P and K are valid for maxmizing yield. In a commercial aquaponics facility this could be very troublesome. However for the homeowner it may not be a big deal if you are willing to live with less than optimum yields. M. R. Mcmurty documents work that he did in 1990 on an aquaponic system at North Carolina State University. He raised Blue Tilapia, tomatoes, cucumbers, and bush beans. The hydro system was in a sand bed, fed by the tank recirculation water. The aqua system was very lightly loaded, 0.014 lb/gal at stocking with a growout to 0.024 lb/gal at the end of the experiment, run time 86 days. This low stocking density produced a dilute recirc stream.

Measured average nutrient values in the beds were P 9.4 ppm, K 0.02, Ca 0.3, Mg 0.11, pH 6.03.



Average aquaculture water quality as follows, Temp 80 deg, pH 6.5, NO2-N 0.1 ppm, (NH3 and NH4+) - N 0.9 ppm, DO 2.7 ppm, alkalinity 20.

The difference in water quality between hydroponics and aquaculture is most likely due to the means of pulling recirc water from the bottom of the fish tanks.

Average tomato yield for the 86 day experiment was 0.93 lb/ft2. This yield is very low but is for a limited amount of time and I believe the purpose of the experiment was not to maximize yields but to examine overall system feasibility with no addition of nutrients. In the conclusion he states that the low nutrient strength does not appear to be detrimental because the hydro system sees freshly rejuvenated nutrient continually, unlike a standard hydro system where the nutrient is mixed, then goes through strength changes and chemical changes with time until it becomes unbalanced. The nutrient strength of the aqua recirc water is relatively constant, increasing slowly as the fish grow and are fed more which provides more nutrients for the plants. At the time this work was done hydro yields were much lower than they are today so the actual numbers are somewhat outdated by recent advances in the technology.

For more the entire paper see McMurtry, M. R., Nelson, P. V., Sanders, D. C., Hodges, L., "Sand Culture of Vegetables Using Recirculated Aquacultural Efluents", Applied Agricultural Research, Vol. 5, No. 4, pp

280-284

Ron Polka

Southwest Technology Development Institute

New Mexico State University

Box 30001, Dept 3SOL

Las Cruces, NM 88003

rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: steve spring

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999

Hi Ron,

THANKS A MILLION...I NEEDED THAT!! I printed your response so I have it to refer to.

On a rather generic note, the internet is so full of crap, vulgarity, etc 2E I am so pleased to be a part of onelist (tilapia & hydroponics) and a quaponics @ townsquare. I may sound foolish, but I look forward to coming home and checking my messages from my associates. There is always humor, genuine questions and concerns and, certainly, not the least, some great information from some very intelligent people.

Just thought I would throw that in. Thanks a lot teammates.

Steve

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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish

From: "TGTX"

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999

Steve,

I have been growing plants and fish together for a while now...I am still learning...and I have concluded that that P&K are not problems for the plants or the fish.

I suggest that you just leap into it fearlessly, or even fearfully if that's what it takes, and just do it! It won't matter in 100 years, if you failed on the 1st experiment...or the second or the third....just keep good notes and watch the system work...and think and dream and scratch your chin and pace around until you figure it out for yourself...you are likely to think of another, better way to grow the plants with your particular set-up, or you might come up with a grand idea to scrap your entire system and build another one based on what you have learned. Just do this: keep oxygen in the water high (near 80% saturation or better if you can manage it....so that might mean 5 to 6 ppm DO2) and keep the water flowing through the system either continuously or with ebb and flow...that's my take on it. Don't let sludge from excess fish feed or introduced solids such as from potting soil plugs around seedlings transplanted into the gravel build up to the point that it is a problem..with respect to oxygen or pathogens or water flow...however you manage to do that...by avoidance, or by scheduled "remediation" will be up to your own best management practices and the design options of your system.

Also...Light and temperature are critical to plant performance.. Some cultivars of tomatoes won't set fruit if the sensible air temperature is above a certain point and this varies with different cultivars....Tomato plants and tomato fruits want light and heat more than lettuce..Sometimes vegetative growth can outstrip flower and fruit development for tomatos in aquaponics systems, but I have found this to be true in my own outdoor raised bed dirt garden. Tom and Paula, and Gordon, and lots of others on this list... have grown a lot more tomatos in aquaponics systems than I have....I think....I planted a few and grew some of the yellow and red teardrop tomatoes...They went wild and took over...I never thought I would consider a tomato vine a weed, but that's what happend in my system, so I ripped them all out and composted them...How can I walk between the aisles when these jungle plants are taking over?

I found a tomato plant growing in my beds that I feel for sure came from someone's BLT sandwich...It could have been from some construction dudes who I hired early on to help me build this thing...my romantic theory and long winded tale about that particular plant goes like this.....a seed or two from his sandwich dropped onto the gravel and became a big vine before I could react to it and pluck it out of the system....Sometimes you just don't want to do that, just to see what variety of plant or tomato it will become....Roma? Beefsteak? Cherry Tomato? Are we going to see a re-enactment of the "Little Shop of Horrors" movie? I resisted the temptation to let it grow out to its full fruition, after a brief period of marvel, and sent it to the compost pile.

I grow my tomatos in the dirt, but I think you can grow whatever you want to grow in aquaponics systems..... I think....there may be problems or nutrient imbalances, based on what is available on the surface of the gravel, what goes into the fish feed, and how the system is operated to maintain oxygen, pH, and salinity, but it is hard to predict what those things might be or how they might change over time since we are discussing systems that are fundamentally different in design and operation....just try it on a small scale and keep building on what works.

Good Luck.

Ted.

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Subject: tomatos ...
From:Ray Schneider <rschneid@shentel.net>
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:28:53 -0500

Jay Myers wrote in response to my signature line:

"The endless search to be sure.???Has anyone ever found the
hydroponic
tomato that tastes like a summertime home grown Tomato ??Is it the
variety, or is it some technique ?"

-- I know this is about fish (tomatoes go well with fish) -- to answer
Jay's question, my own experience suggests that taste follows variety
and not so much hydroponics methods.The reasons storebought tomatoes
generally don't taste all that good are IMHO: 1) the varieties are
selected for shelf-life and not taste, 2) they are picked early (same
reason), and 3) yield is an important property in commercial cultivars,
also uncorrelated with taste.The tomatoes I've grown on my backyard
system have been among the most tasty tomatoes I have ever eaten -- all
the folks at work agree too.

Now for an on-topic question -- Lettuce and strawberries I gather use
relatively low EC's so maybe they are more compatible than tomatoes for
fish.Is anyone growing tomatoes and fish?
What are the EC limits the fish tolerate?Are there any adverse effects
from for example EC's of 2800-3500 which is about where I've been
running my tomatoes.

Cheers, Ray

--
Ray Schneider
rschneid@shentel.net
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.
Come See Me at:
http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:S & S Aqua Farm
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:30:30 -0600

At 11:28 AM 01/16/2000 -0500, Ray wrote:

>Now for an on-topic question -- Lettuce and strawberries I gather use
>relatively low EC's so maybe they are more compatible than tomatoes for
>fish.Is anyone growing tomatoes and fish?

We've grown tomatoes for some time, and one of the first write-ups we saw on
a combination aquaculture and plant growing system was based on research
growing tomatoes by Dr. Mark McMurtry.I've misplaced the exact title of
his work, but I'm sure we could come up with it if anyone wants to review
it.It's not that it isn't being done, just that the most recent
conversations have been around other crops.

Of course, if we're growing tomatoes, then besides the outside growers, we
also have to think about competition from the "traditional" hydroponics
growers, eh? :>)

>What are the EC limits the fish tolerate?Are there any adverse effects
>from for example EC's of 2800-3500 which is about where I've been
>running my tomatoes.

I hope someone who measures this answers you, Ray.We very seldom run tests
any more.I hate to take the simplistic view; but if your fish are happy
(water quality is good, they're eating, no stress signs), and the plants are
growing and producing (and filtering), I don't see the need to disect the
system.You won't want to be growing fish in hydroponic solution anyway.
That's what the fish effluent water is for - the replace the function of the
hydro solutions.

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:46:30 -0500

Jay,
I grew some grape tomatoes from seed scavenged from grocery store grape
tomatoes and they are great, just the right combination of sweet and
tart.Now if I can grow a slicer just like them I would be in heaven.

Ray, what is your favorite variety for flavor?

Adriana Gutierrez
Sarasota, Fl
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:Ray Schneider <rschneid@shentel.net>
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:04:48 -0500

Hmmm ... that's a tough one since a lot of them were very good.Among
my favorites were the French Dona, which is a very red, very
symmetrical, nearly perfect looking medium size tomato with a tangy
taste.I really like them.The Presto is a slightly larger tomato that
I like almost as well as the Dona from this years system.I grew a lot
of other varieties -- about eight in all, but those two remain my
favorites.

I didn't particularly care for the cherry tomatoes that I've grown --
they are good, but I prefer the bigger tomatoes.I accidently got some
hybrids from New Jersey Standards and Sun Gold cherries -- these were
pretty funny -- pingpong ball size cherry tomatoes -- some yellow some
rose colored -- the gold ones were really tasty inheriting the taste of
the Sun Golds, the rose ones were less tasty and too small for "real"
tomatoes and too big to be cherries -- they were the same size as the
Gold ones, just didn't taste quite as good.Then I had a bunch of
others and some of them were good.I love nearly all tomatoes -- so
we're talking a little about nits -- I do think the Dona and Prestos
were the two best I grew this past year.They were both from Totally
Tomatoes.

Cheers, Ray

Ray Schneider
rschneid@shentel.net
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.
Come See Me at:
http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:"Jay Myers"
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:05:37 -0600

Ray -

We use an EC of 1500 for strawberries.There is a PhD around the Va. area
who tried to grow strawberries in the Vert-i-grow system using trout water,
but they didn't do that well.They had to suppliment with some hydro fert.

My brief experience has shown lettuce, flowers, spinach, etc. to do really
well, and my fish are only 4 weeks along, only weighing 4.6 gr. x 3400 =
about 35 Lbs of fish.

Based on Paula's words I am going to transplant my only tomato plant into
the grow bed tomorrow.

Jay Myers
Panama City Beach, Fl.
Skydiving spoken here!
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Subject: RE: tomatos ...
From: "William Brown"
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 06:20:21 -1000

Hey Jay;

We use an EC of 1500 for strawberries. There is a PhD around the Va. area
who tried to grow strawberries in the Vert-i-grow system using trout water,
but they didn't do that well. They had to suppliment with some hydro fert.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From: wills/nachreiner
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:19:31 -0600

At 10:04 PM 1/16/2000 -0500, you wrote:

In the summer we had great tomatoes growing in our greenhouse, watered from
the living machine but not grown directly in it. Of course in the summer
everyone has tomatoes. We were really excited about the prospect of year
round production but have found that the same tomatoes don't taste very
good in the winter. Our guess is that there isn't enough light here in the
North. We don't really want to add the cost of artificial lighting for
what is essentially still a side project. (It doesn't sell cheese). Does
anyone know if there are tomatoe varieties that are particularly good at
producing sugars with less light? We're not exactly in the tundra,
especially this winter. Global warming doesn't seem to be accompanied by
global lighting.
Box185 Plain,Wi 53577
(608) 546-2712
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